Ballad Of A Thin Man

Things Twice
While there is some agreement on who Mr. Jones
(the central figure of the Ballad Of A Thin Man) represents,
the homosexual content of the song is much debated.


Originally compiled: October 27, 1996
Last revised: September 6, 1997


Subject: Ballad of a thin man
From: Jim Goldman (JimGPhynn@AOL.COM)
Date: 1995/04/15

> Could someone please explain this song to me, I'm a young Dylan fan
> and for the last week I've listened to this song at least fifty times
> but I still can't figure it out.
Mr. Jones is certainly one of Dylan's greatest images... I cannot speak for anyone else, but there are times when I feel a lot like Mr. Jones...

I shall quote Robert Shelton, in his bio of Dylan, No Direction Home (c) 1985...

Mister Jones, one of Dylan's greatest archetypes, is a Philistine, an observer who does not see, a person who does not reach for the right questions. He piously pays his social dues through self-serving tax deductions, pays to watch freak shows but doesn't like the entertainment, is superficially educated and well bred but not very smart about the things that count...

In the song Yer Blues, by the Beatles, (from the white album) John Lennon wails, "Feel so suicidal, just like Dylan's Mister Jones."

More recently, Counting Crows scored a big hit with their song, "Mister Jones," which may be a continuation of the freak show image in the song Thin Man... They even sing, "I wanna be Bob Dylan. Mr. Jones wishes he were someone just a little more funky..."

Who is Mr. Jones? Possibly a journalist. Possibly a lawyer. Possibly just about anyone whom we might meet.

Shall we debate who, in specific, Bob had in mind when he wrote it? I'm torn between Joan Baez and Phil Ochs... Does anyone else have any ideas?

Jim





From: Rob Patterson (orca@eden.com)
Subject: Dylan IS Mr. Jones
Date: 1997/03/08

: >Anyone ever consider the possibility that Dylan sees himself as Mr.
: >Jones?

: I believe the song is pointed at a member of the media, but in the course
: of his attack, perhaps Dylan began to examine his own thoughts about what
: is real and what is absurb.

: Mr. Jones could be a member of the mainstream suddenly thrust into the
: realm of a subculture.
Okay folks, tried to post this before, maybe this time it will actually get posted, but....

Mr. Jones, specifically, is a fellow by the name of Jeff Jones. He wrote an article for Rolling Stone sometime in the 70s about him and Thin Man. I met the guy once in the mid-80s via a gal we had both dated (sorry, but this may dispell the Thin Man/gay thread), and he told me his story in even greater detail.

In the summer of 1965, Jeff Jones was an intern at Newsweek. Somehow, he presuaded the powers that be to let him do a piece on the revival of the harmonica in popular music, and then was able to secure a Dylan interview, arranged to happen at the Newport Folk Festival after Bob played his set.

We all know what happened there. (If you don't have a tape of it, get it! Three songs that changed the world. Mike Bloomfield just KILLS on electric guitar. Somebody should have strangled the compere who kept calling Dylan "Bobby," and after the electric set, kept prattling on in his obsequious, folk Nazi manner, "Bobby's gonna come back up with his acoustic guitar and do a few more numbers." What a jerk!)

So after all that madness, Dylan comes offstage and is hustled into a van where sits young Jeff Jones. Outside, the clamoring fans start rocking the van and pounding on it. Inside, Jeff is asking Dylan what he recalled as rather dumb, mundane questions, getting perfunctory answers from Bob. After maybe five or ten minutes of this uneasy interview while the people are outside beating on the van and rocking it back and forth, Dylan is hustled out.

Jeff is staying at the same hotel as the performers, and for the rest of the weekend, whenever her runs into Dylan and his entourage (why do I keep envisioning Neuwirth in this scene? is this something I picked up from a Dylan biog? Or is it just that I think Neuwirth is one of the neatest people I've ever met?) anyway...whenever Dylan sees Jeff, he needles him: "Oh, Mister Jooones! Have any more questions, Mister Jooones? Do you want to know what's going on, Mr. Jooones?!"

Not too many months later, a new Dylan song comes on the radio, "You walk in a room...." By the time Jeff hears the refrain, he knows who Mr. Jones is.

When he told me about this 20 years later--he was working for CBS TV at the time, don't know where he (or that gal we both dated) is now--he was quite sheepish, even embarassed to admit that he was Mr. Jones. I told him that, all embarassment about youthful silliness aside, it was a major honor to be the inspiration for a Dylan song (Hell, I dated a rather noted female singer-songwriter for a little bit, a gal who has been called a female Dylan, but do you think she writes a song about me? Nooooo!)

But I have said this here before and probably will again: every great songwriter filters the specific through the muse, and what comes out is its own distinct entity. The best songs have multiple interpretations and meanings, some of them surely unintended. As fascinating as it is to try and tie the life of the writer to the song and also plumb the depths of their psyches, what's most important is what a song means to you, the listener. Especially Dylan songs. Truly great songs are most often those that have a malleability that allows us to include them in our own lives.

: Think of a immigrant in a strange land with little or no command of his
: new home's language.
Uh, this interpretation better fits another Dylan song: How does it feel, to be on your own, with no direction home, like a complete unknown....

: The possibilities are endless.

True, true

: Mr. Jones could be you.

At times I've felt that way--that's my point at the end of what's above.

: He could be me.

He is all of us at some time or another.
That's why Dylan is a genius


From: Sadiejane (sadiejane@folly.org)
Subject: Dylan IS Mr. Jones
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997

Rob Patterson wrote:

But I have said this here before and probably will again: every great songwriter filters the specific through the muse, and what comes out is its own distinct entity. The best songs have multiple interpretations and meanings, some of them surely unintended. As fascinating as it is to try and tie the life of the writer to the song and also plumb the depths of their psyches, what's most important is what a song means to you, the listener. Especially Dylan songs. Truly great songs are most often those that have a malleability that allows us to include them in our own lives.
(snipped rest of a simply fabulous post!!!!)

This is the reason that I love Dylan's songs/performances so much. They always seem to be specially for or about me ;+} They require/insist/demand that I interpret them - filter them through my own experience of life and art - in order for me to enjoy/understand/be effected by them. I am certian I've seen performances of this song where it is very clear that Dylan is singing from Mr. Jones' perspective and times when he singing as though TO Mr. Jones. The listener is really never sure who mr. jones is - someone on the outside or someone on the in. Suddenly you don't know what's happening either.

So the song does *to* you, what it's about.

audience participation ;+}

sadiej


Subject: Thin Man
From: RT7727@CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU (Tysinger, Richard Darren)
Date: 1995/04/21

I'm was wondering if anybody has ever mentioned the rather obvious homosexual overtones in "Ballad of a Thin Man" i.e. the sword swallower in high heels and the "You're a cow! Give me some milk or else go home!" line. Both of those seem to be implying oral sex. Plus, is the one-eyed midget referring to a small penis or something? Oh well, I may be reading too much into it....


Subject: Thin Man
From: entropy69@aol.com (Entropy69)
Date: 1995/04/22

Wow!!! I never caught those conotations before. Anyone else notice anything?


Subject: Mr. Jones is (not?) homosexual?
From: jns127@psu.edu (Jason Sandlin)
Date: 1996/08/15

I was paging through Bob Dylan Whos' Who (http://www.expectingrain.com/dok/who/who.html) and saw that Mr. Jones's reference didn't say anything about Mr. Jones being homosexual, nor did I see anything discussed about it in a quick search of HWY61-L (could have been talked about before though and I missed it in my search). My view is that Mr. Jones is a normal citizen maybe even married but has thoughts of homosexuality and somehow ends up in a exotic gay strip club, where he can't believe what is happening and doesn't know what to do. I have thought this since I first analyzed the song, so I was wondering if anyone else thinks this way or am I wrong in thinking this or do most people agree with me? I'll run through the lyrics of "Ballad of a Thin Man" if any ones interested to try to justify my thoughts.

You walk into the room
With your pencil in your hand
You see somebody naked
And you say, "Who is that man?"
You try so hard
But you don't understand
Just what you'll say
When you get home
pencil=penis. basically he has entered a exotic gay strip bar/club where they are doing all of these weird acts of sexuality and he wonders what's happening, and how he is going to deal with this.

(3rd verse)
You hand in your ticket
And you go watch the geek
Who immediately walks up to you
When he hears you speak
And says, "How does it feel
To be such a freak?"
And you say, "Impossible"
As he hands you a bone
he walks up to Mr. Jones when he hears Mr. Jones speak maybe because Mr. Jones sounds gay and he asks how does it feel to be "a freak" or gay and replies "impossible" because Mr. Jones doesn't think he is - at least not at the level flaunting that these people in this club are doing.

You have many contacts
Among the lumberjacks
To get you facts
When someone attacks your imagination
But nobody has any respect
Anyway they already expect you
To just give a check
To tax-deductible charity organizations
for me this is a key verse since it says "you have many contacts among the lumberjacks" or 'straight'/'manly' people, "when someone attacks your imagination", like these people are doing in these strip club.

You've been with the professors
And they've all liked your looks
With great lawyers you have
Discussed lepers and crooks
You've been through all of
F. Scott Fitzgerald's books
You're very well read
It's well known
this verse shows Mr. Jones tries to convince himself that he IS a part of society since he has done all of these things and not like these other "freaks"

Well, the sword swallower, he comes up to you
And then he kneels
He crosses himself
And then he clicks his high heels
And without further notice
He asks you how it feels
And he says, "Here is your throat back
Thanks for the loan"
just use your imagination for this one. its pretty clear to me that he is in a gay strip club.

Now you see this one-eyed midget
Shouting the word "NOW"
And you say, "For what reason?"
And he says, "How?"
And you say, "What does this mean?"
And he screams back, "You're a cow
Give me some milk
Or else go home"
one-eyed midget - a penis more than likely. again use your imagination.

Well, you walk into the room
Like a camel and then you frown
You put your eyes in your pocket
And your nose on the ground
There ought to be a law
Against you coming' around
You should be made
To wear earphones
the lasts lines are what Dylan is famous for - incredible lyrics. Mr. Jones thinks that society should "protect" him from places like this, and he shouldn't be allowed to even be exposed to this.

overall I think its a great piece of work by Dylan as usual and the lessons from it can be applied to any type of situation.


Subject: Mr. Jones is (not?) homosexual?
From: ernie@iol.ie
Date: 1996/08/15

Yipeeee! This is the best laugh I've ever had on rmd! Great stuff!

I'm off to play Forever Young now to check if it's really 'about' an eminent Swiss psychologist.

More, please.

Colin


Subject: Mr. Jones is (not?) homosexual?
From: John Howells (howells@sgi.com)
Date: 1996/08/15

It seems perfectly obvious to me that Mr. Jones is a critic, in particular a music critic who hasn't a clue what pop music is all about. Assuming you're serious, let me give you my interpretation.

> pencil=penis. basically he has entered a exotic gay strip bar/club
> where they are doing all of these weird acts of sexuality and he
> wonders what's happening, and how he is going to deal with this.
Pencil=pencil. The basic tool of the reporter/critic. The room he walks into is hosting a Dylan press conference.

> he walks up to Mr. Jones when he hears Mr. Jones speak maybe because
> Mr. Jones sounds gay and he asks how does it feel to be "a freak" or
> gay and replies "impossible" because Mr. Jones doesn't think he is -
> at least not at the level flaunting that these people in this club are
> doing.
Mr. Jones is now attending one of Dylan's concerts, but the artist confuses Mr. Jones even more by confronting him and throwing the whole experience back on him - something that Dylan was fond of doing in 1965. "How does it feel..." is of course Dylan singing "Like a Rolling Stone", and the freak turns out to be Mr. Jones!

> You have many contacts
> Among the lumberjacks
>
>
>	*	*	*
> for me this is a key verse since it says "you have many contacts
> among the lumberjacks" or 'straight'/'manly' people, "when someone
> attacks your imagination", like these people are doing in these strip
> club.
"Lumberjacks" is just a code word for the "common man". Since Mr. Jones doesn't have any real life experiences to fall back on, he pretends to be a salt of the earth type instead of the elitist he really is.

> You've been with the professors
> And they've all liked your looks
> With great lawyers you have
> Discussed lepers and crooks
> You've been through all of
> F. Scott Fitzgerald's books
> You're very well read
> It's well known
> 
> this verse shows Mr. Jones tries to convince himself that he IS a
> part of society since he has done all of these things and not like
> these other "freaks"
No, he just tries to convince himself he's intelligent.

> Well, the sword swallower, he comes up to you
> And then he kneels
> He crosses himself
> And then he clicks his high heels
> And without further notice
> He asks you how it feels
> And he says, "Here is your throat back
> Thanks for the loan"
> 
> just use your imagination for this one.  its pretty clear to me that
> he is in a gay strip club.
Ha ha! The sword swallower is just another sideshow freak, which the critic expected to see, but once again Dylan shows Mr. Jones to be the real freak.

> one-eyed midget - a penis more than likely.   again use your
> imagination.
Or another sideshow freak. As in the typical Dylan press conference or interview of 1965, he would answer questions with more questions.

> Well, you walk into the room
> Like a camel and then you frown
> You put your eyes in your pocket
> And your nose on the ground
> There ought to be a law
> Against you coming' around
> You should be made
> To wear earphones
> 
> the lasts lines are what Dylan is famous for - incredible lyrics.
> Mr. Jones thinks that society should "protect" him from places like
> this, and he shouldn't be allowed to even be exposed to this.
No, what Dylan is saying here is "why bother to come to my concerts if you aren't going to listen?".

> overall I think its a great piece of work by Dylan as usual and the
> lessons from it can be applied to any type of situation.
Dylan is a great lyricist, but really you're reading far too much into his words.

-- 

                                                         John Howells
                                                      howells@sgi.com
                                       http://reality.sgi.com/howells


Subject: Mr. Jones is (not?) homosexual?
From: jns127@psu.edu (Jason Sandlin)
Date: 1996/08/15

John Howells  wrote:
>>
>> just use your imagination for this one.  its pretty clear to me that
>> he is in a gay strip club.
>> 
>
>Ha ha! The sword swallower is just another sideshow freak, which the
>critic expected to see, but once again Dylan shows Mr. Jones to be
>the real freak.
I don't know about that. I mean come on now - a male "sword swallower" who is wearing high heels comes up to, and then ask you how it feels and says "Here is your throat back thanks for the loan". I don't see how that can be anything but homosexual.

>Dylan is a great lyricist, but really you're reading far too much into
>his words.
maybe so, but remember that Allen Ginsberg was one of Dylan's good friends, and some of his poems are extemely homosexual in nature. (I did like 'Howl' tho - that is a great poem.)


Subject: Mr. Jones is (not?) homosexual?
From: rcj10@cam.ac.uk (Craig Jamieson)
Date: 1996/08/16

Jason Sandlin (jns127@psu.edu) wrote:
:
: for me this is a key verse since it says "you have many contacts
: among the lumberjacks" or 'straight'/'manly' people, "when someone
: attacks your imagination", like these people are doing in these strip
: club.
Here I do disagree, the lumberjacks are surely gay men! The gay men he got his information on the gay scene from, and imagined what went on based on this, now he is seeing the reality and is finding it difficult to take in. Liberal interest and theory has met raw practice head on! I imagine Mr. Jones pontificating about the gay scene and irritating those who know it with his second hand knowledge. That lack of experience is being seen to.

You have many contacts among the gay men you know, and you use them as your informants when your liberal second hand theories based on what you imagine to be the case come under attack.

: Well, the sword swallower, he comes up to you
:   just use your imagination for this one.  its pretty clear to me that
: he is in a gay strip club.    

: Now you see this one-eyed midget
:   one-eyed midget - a penis more than likely.   again use your
: imagination.

: You should be made
: To wear earphones
:   the lasts lines are what Dylan is famous for - incredible lyrics.
: Mr. Jones thinks that society should "protect" him from places like
: this, and he shouldn't be allowed to even be exposed to this.  

: overall I think its a great piece of work by Dylan as usual and the
: lessons from it can be applied to any type of situation.
Let's imagine the images:

With your pencil in your hand
You try so hard
You raise up your head
As he hands you a bone
Among the lumberjacks
Have you seen lumberjacks on CBC television? Might I recommend Quest!

>If you have never SEEN Quest, only heard it on tape, vinyl or CD, then
>let me assure you it is essential Dylan video. I stake my reputation on
>it. Rather like the punchline of a joke or the plot of a mystery story,
>I do not want to say too much and spoil it. Let's just say it is not
>like anyone imagines it will be before they see it! Don't look it up
>in the books and read about it, see it cold with no expectations. 
>You won't regret it... 

>CBC TV Studio, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, 1 February 1964. [064]
>Produced by Daryl Duke. Broadcast by the CBC [Canadian Broadcasting
>Corporation] 10 March 1964 in the programme Quest. This edition was
>called The Times They Are A-Changin. Mono television. 

>This programme is a special interest of mine. If you know anyone
>connected with the CBC or anyone who recalls watching this episode
>of Quest or any others do give them my e-mail address! Daryl Duke may
>still be alive and may be in the Toronto telephone book, I have
>never thought to look when I have been in that fine city.
Well, the sword swallower, he comes up to you And he says, "Here is your throat back

Welll any deep meanings come to mind here? ;-)

Now you see this one-eyed midget
Give me some milk
Because something is happening
And you don't know what it is
Do you, Mister Jones?
Whooaah...
And the the variants, a good test for questionable interpretations, if Dylan can happily sing a variant that ruins an interpretation of a song, then you feel on less solid ground.

He tells you how it feels
And says, "Here is your mouth back
Thank you for the loan."

And you say, "Oh, good God, what does that mean?"
And he screams back, "You're a cow
Give me some milk
Or else go home."
Yes, and you really know something is happening
And you've got to find out what it is
Don't you, Mister Jones?

You should be made
To be wearing for all times a telephone.

You slip in a side door
And Say, "Is this where it is?"
And somebody points his finger at you and says "It's his."

Next time you remember
To bring some earphones

Earphones, telephones, you like your experiences safe and second hand, 
no live music for you, no real physical contact, you prefer to distance
yourself.
You are full of, what is the word, oh yes... theories. Leprosy? Oh yes you have theories on that. But have you met a leper? Been to a colony or hospital? Had leprosy? Nooooo, you read about it? Crime, theft? Have you stolen anything? Been in prison? Noooo, but you've read about it and discussed it over cocktails with eminent lawyers. Eminent professors and other educated people are very impressed by your theories. Now you're at a real party. But are you really attending or is your style that of The Great Gatsby?

(F. Scott Fitzgerald, a Minnesota boy with a taste for drink and a rough ride from the critics...)

Mr Jones the concert critic, Mr Jones the man trying to investigate gay sexuality, and of course Mr Jones the song and dance man singing about all and sundry but questioning if it is really all so superficial, imagining the experiences of others, while not brave enough to delve into anything himself, wholly and totally...

                                                       Craig
--
He got a brother named James, don't forget faces and names
Sunken cheeks and his blood is mixed
He looks straight into the sun and says "Revenge is mine"
But he drinks, and drinks can be fixed.
Sing me one more song about your "love me to the morning, stranger"
And your fall by the sword love affair with Errol Flynn
In these times of compassion when conformity's in fashion
Say one more stupid thing to me before the final nail is driven in.


Subject: Mr. Jones is (not) homosexual
From: jokerman (jokerman@NANDO.NET
Date: 1996/08/16

It was recently written (sorry I'm too lazy to cite these properly) that BD's friend, Alan Ginsburg, has written some poems of a homosexual nature. Since Mr. G. freely admits to being of a homosexual nature himself, this makes sense. It's probably possible to read homosexual themes into most of his poems.

I would put forth the idea that Dylan just extended the circus imagery and put the suggestion of fellatio into this verse as a joke (or unexpected attention-getter, if you will). I also believe this is about what happened in Tangled up... when "she bent down to tie the laces of my shoe." In "Mr. Jones", it's not whether or not Mr. J is or is not homosexual, it's just another behavior that the Mr. Jonses of the world can't dig. And Dylan may have had a "keep 'em guessing" attitude when he penned this too.

In TUIB, the joke is much clearer to me. The narrator discovers old flame working in a topless joint, she suddenly kneels before him, in an instant he thinks, "My God! is she going to blow me right here?" Then, uneasiness, disappointment, relief, who knows what sort of jumbled emotions would flash through one's mind in this instant?

Wayland


Subject: Mr. Jones is (not?) homosexual?
From: rcj10@cam.ac.uk (Craig Jamieson)
Date: 1996/08/16

John Howells (howells@sgi.com) wrote:
[Masses deleted but you haven't forgotten in have you?]
: Dylan is a great lyricist, but really you're reading far too much into
: his words.
This may be a troll, surely it is a troll?

Both interpretations work well for me, both ring true, both were commonly accepted in the circles I moved in in the '60s.

I see no conflict between them.

I am staggered that John could deny the sexual content of the song! Staggered.

But then again he may be teasing us knowing it will get a reaction. What do you call that kind of teaser, I fergit? ;-)

I have seen my share of one-eyed midgets, but not in circuses? Geek is a very fine word, and brings in the chicken and egg thread I suppose.

Come clean John, in e-mail at least, are you serious or are you just sparking controversy on a hot summer's afternoon when everyone is too lazy to post much...

                                                          Craig
--
Well, the deputy walks on hard nails and the preacher rides a mount
But nothing really matters much, it's doom alone that counts
And the one-eyed undertaker, he blows a futile horn.
"Come in," she said,
"I'll give you shelter from the storm."


Subject: Mr. Jones is (not?) homosexual?
From: Patricia Jungwirth (tricia.j@AARDVARK.APANA.ORG.AU)
Date: 1996/08/17

>Fri, 16 Aug 1996 11:52:27 GMT
>Craig Jamieson 
>John Howells (howells@sgi.com) wrote:
>[Masses deleted but you haven't forgotten in have you?]
>: Dylan is a great lyricist, but really you're reading far too much into
>: his words.
>
>I am staggered that John could deny the sexual content of the song!
>I have seen my share of one-eyed midgets, but not in circuses?
I thought the "does bob suck?" thread had expired...

--Linda Lovelace


Subject: Mr. Jones is (not?) homosexual?
From: starfish@odyssee.net (Mark Carter)
Date: 1996/08/19

In article <3213a67f.6378101@netnews.voicenet.com>, jns127@psu.edu (Jason Sandlin) wrote:

> maybe so, but remember that Allen Ginsberg was one of  Dylan's good
> friends, and some of his poems are extemely homosexual in nature.  (I
> did like 'Howl' tho - that is a great poem.)
"Extremely homosexual" in nature? As opposed to, say, "lightly heterosexual in nature"? I don't get it. I don't get your "tho/though" either. Is Whitman's "Song of Myself" any less great because of its "extremely homosexual" nature? Only in a homophobic society, I guess. Pity.

I think Dylan's whole gender-bending imagery (which is plentiful in his mid-Sixties work) owes much more to the aesthetic of filmmaker Fellini than to any fascination with homosexuality itself. The "gay strip club" I find a gratuitous interpretation. Sure the lines are suggestive, but they work powerfully on a literal level--very disorienting.

"Well that guy in the sweater's off duty/ Well he's out in front of that welfare hotel/ The guy in the dress is a beauty/ Go all the way I swear you never can tell" --Tom Waits, from "Union Square" on _Rain Dogs_


Subject: Mr. Jones is (not?) homosexual?
From: sigle001@akula.com
Date: 1996/08/24

Seems to me a lot of the analyses on this newsgroup depend to heavily on the faulty practice of findibg out "what really happens" in Dylan's songs. What really happens is that these are words and should be analyzed less with a conspiracy theory mind-set.

Clearly Dylan evokes sexuality in "Mr Jones" (though that is something Counting Crows maybe should have thought about..:-)) but it is not ABOUT homosexuality. It is about the chaos and what a severly ordered and closed mind does with chaos. Part of this chaos is sexual (as in many of Dylan's songs). But certainly the circus (tho it seems they are all male init) has more connotations than sex. It is an icon with a long and obvious history. What happens when the circus comes to town? Well you can see Bergman's "Tinsel and Sawdust" for more on that (or any number of "French" movies, paintings and poems).

And doesn't the listener get this snese of chaos from all of these weird images that we have trouble making complete sense of ? and don't we kinda feel like Mr Jones and have to find out a more reasonable interpretation of what really happens because we want a clear story so we don't feel so disoriented? (not to say that analysis is useless)

Johannes


Subject: Gay Dylan Fans
From: rcj10@cam.ac.uk (Craig Jamieson)
Date: 1995/05/22

Jim Maynard (j.maynard11@GENIE.GEIS.COM) wrote:
: OK, I'm new to r.m.d., but I bet this is the first time this subject
: has come up.  I'm one of a very very very small number of gay men in
: the world who is a Dylan fanatic.  In all of my 30 years, I've only
: met one other gay person who liked Dylan--a friend introduced as at a
: club and we just talked Dylan talk for two hours.  (It was better
: than sex!)  Anyway, I would like to hear from other gay/bi Dylan
Why on earth would it be the first time this subject has come up? That would be very odd indeed.

: Of course, Dylan's little religious phase scared a lot of people
: away.  I've read about his mini-sermons, including condemnations of
: homosexuality back in his Christian concerts.  I wonder how Dylan
: really feels about gay people now?  Especially, considering the
: number of great influences and friends of Dylan's who were/are gay
: (e.g., Allen Gingsberg).
Indeed, Gin[g]sberg brags openly even on television of famous lovers he collects rather like postage stamps. He seems to treat it like some sort of lineage taking considerable interest in famous past lovers of his own lovers.

And remember all the trouble Paul Clayton got himself into at The Gaslight. His role in Dylan's career is often under-estimated, from giving Bob Dylan a guest spot at his own concert at The Showboat Lounge in Washington on 24 September 1961 to Dylan losing the court case about Don't Think Twice.

There are lots of gay themes in Dylan songs, lots of ambiguity. There is nothing in the words to stop a person taking It's All Over Now, Baby Blue as a song with a female character in it for example! And there are people who get upset if the events which appear to have sparked or inspired a song are even brought up. Some find such information insightful while still accepting the universal application of a song, others find it intrusive.

Some may recall when #dylan in irc was discussing Jet Pilot and invited the whole of #crossdres in to the discussion. All of #crossdres knew the song, which surprised me. More interestingly they all assumed Bob Dylan was a crossdresser. Often people assume he is what they want him to be, which is part of the role I suppose.

I recall songs which came up on that occasion were Temporary Like Achilles, Is Your Love In Vain, Foot Of Pride, Canadee-i-o, Jackaroe, Female Rambling Sailor and a handful of others. And whether it really is Sally Grossman on the cover of Bringing It all Back Home?

No one in #dylan has ever invited one of the gay groups in, that might be interesting.

In general most of the gay men in rec.music.dylan are just themselves, only a few have announced their sexuality. And the lesbians have been even less out, oddly the theme of Dylan and lesbians always declines into something silly, occasionally amusing, mostly not...

>: number of great influences and friends of Dylan's who were/are gay

Have a wander through Karl Erik's Who's Who if this interests you, and fill any gaps you see.

http://www.expectingrain.com/dok/who/who.html

And what does a kneeling sword swallower symbolise to people?

The Hartford sermon from 1980 is one of the more interesting ones. Bob Dylan's opinions about San Francisco...

I'll look for you in old Honolulu,
San Francisco, Ashtabula,
Yer gonna have to leave me now, I know.
So now, too, there's a lot of hypocrites; they're talkin' you know, using Jesus' name. But don't let that put you off. Because they're still dealing with the world, and Jesus has overcome the world - that's what he did at the cross, as simple as that. He didn't make it complicated. But actually, if you look at Jesus you gotta look at the cross. Actually, if you wonder why all these things are happening nowadays, Joshua, you know, he went into, I believe it was, uh, Canaan land, and God told him that in certain times He would destroy all the people, every man, woman, children there. You see that's bad. Certainly he hated to leave the children, but they was all just defiled. And there was some cities. God said "Don't go in there yet" so Joshua wondered why, and God said, "because their iniquity is not yet full."

So now, you look around today, when we started out this tour, we started out in San Francisco. It's a kind of unique town these days. I think it's either one third or two thirds of the population that are homosexuals in San Francisco. I've heard it said. Now, I guess they're working up to a hundred percent,I don't know. But anyway,it's a growing place for homosexuals and I read they have homosexual politics, and it's a political party. I don't mean it's going on in somebody's closet. I mean it's political! All right, you know what I'm talking about? Anyway, I would just think, well I guess the iniquity's not yet full. And I don't wanna be around when it is!

It has been mentioned here before that the Jokerman line, "What do you care, ain't nobody there would want to marry your sister" could be a statement about whether one should care about gay people. The "there" is Sodom and Gomorrah.

You're a man of the mountains, you can walk on the clouds,
Manipulator of crowds, you're a dream twister.
You're going to Sodom and Gomorrah
But what do you care? Ain't nobody there
Would want to marry your sister.
Friend to the martyr, a friend to the woman of shame,
You look into the fiery furnace, see the rich man without any name.
Jokerman dance to the nightingale's tune,
Bird fly high by the light of the moon,
Oh, oh, oh, Jokerman.
And I also recall an interesting discussion of Eve Kosofsy Sedgwick's Tendencies (Routeledge, 1994) when intellectual threads and reading were more in fashion on rec.music.dylan. Remember, it was about You're Gonna Make Me Lonesome... being about the repudiation of a gay relationship for a straight one. "Mine've been like Verlaine's and Rimbaud." Appallingly bad relationships in general, or gay in particular?

Do people take her seriously?

Part of the formal interest of this lyric lies in the rhyme that isn't a rhyme, *correct* with *direct*. The hammering double iteration of the same syllable, /rect/, the syllable that (from the Latin rectus) signifies "straight", seems to enforce as if conclusively the song's forward trajectory toward normative (hetero)sexuality. At the same time, the lyric... takes the risk of evoking the other derivative of the Latin rectus, the rectum - diverting the song's trajectory back to a brooding on the now disavowed form of love, figured as anal, that used to "hit me from below"...

: Now for *my* interepretation of "Just Like a Woman"....

We are waiting...

                                                  Craig
--
Did we go too far?
Did we snap at the bait, did we follow a star
Through the hole in the wall to where the long arm of the law cannot reach?
Could I have been used and played as a pawn?
It certainly was possible as that gay night wore on
When men bathed in perfume and practiced the hoax of free speech...


Subject: Gay Dylan Fans
From: Rad (conradg@bnr.ca)
Date: 1995/05/23

rcj10@cam.ac.uk (Craig Jamieson) wrote:

>Often people assume he is what they want him to be, which is part 
>of the role I suppose. 

Exact-o-mundo!

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