Look OutBob's BankWhat Can Bob's Bank Learn?
From Bob's Bank

Jingle Use Of Songs

Bob's LabelsBob's LabelsThings Twice

Bob's Brokerage Firm
Nomura Securities International, Inc.

Like Mark Twain's death, reports of Dylan's "selling out" have been greatly
exaggerated. Beginning with his signing with Columbia, Dylan has periodically
been accused of selling out. Upon reflection, most would agree that, rather than
selling out, Dylan was asserting his individuality and following his artistic spirit.

After years of steadfast refusal to allow his songs to be used as jingles,
he consented to an accounting firm's use of The Times They Are A-Changin'.
Fresh, and more literal, cries of selling out promptly followed.
As they did following jingle use of Dylan songs by a Greek beer and a
Canadian bank, and a private concert for a Japanese brokerage firm.

See Writings in irrelevance - approaching irony for an analysis of
whether Boo Wilbury is being a hypocrite or PAR-ironic.

Bob's Accountants

Originally compiled: October 21, 1996
Last revised: September 20, 1997

Bob's Record Company

Bob's Brew. . .Beware of Greeks Bearing gifs!


From: yunker@ms.uky.edu (Katie)
Bob's AccountantsSubject: The times they are a-changin'
Date: 2 Jan 1994 11:47:45 -0500

Last night, during the broadcast of the Federal Express Orange Bowl on NBC, Coopers Lybrand ran an ad of various images in which the "uniting" element was a slow tempo rendition of a full verse of "The Times They Are A-Changin'"



From: yunker@ms.uky.edu (Katie)
Subject:The times they are a-changin'
Date: 3 Jan 94 15:21:58 GMT

From the _Wall Street Journal_, 1/3/94, p.11, col.1, "Coopers & Lybrand Unveils Upbeat Ads":

The message of change couple with unabashed hope is brought to you by Coopers & Lybrand, one of the Big Six accounting firms. The 60-second ad, produced by the Boston advertising agency Hill Holliday Connors & Cosmopulos, had its premiere Saturday during the first quarter of the Cotton Bowl on NBC. The ad will be seen next on CBS following President Clinton's State of the Union address this month.

.... [The] image ad even has Richie Havens singing a mellow version of the 1964 Bob Dylan classic, "The Times They Are A-Changin'." It is one of the few times, perhaps even the first time, a Dylan song has been sold for commercial purposes. The times they are a-changin', indeed. For undisclosed reasons, neither Coopers nor its ad agency could even utter Mr. Dylan's name when describing the song. The ad agency said it only bought the song and a confidentiality agreement prevented discussion of its composer.

A few notes. I didn't watch any of the Cotton Bowl other than its waning moments; I saw the ad during the Orange Bowl. Although the tempo of Havens' rendition (will this have to go into the file of Dylan covers?) is very slo-ow, I recognized the song im- mediately and turned to my husband to exchange a knowing look -- but he didn't recognize it until the title line. The article muses that this is perhaps the first time a Dylan song has been sold for _commercial_ purposes; given that many Dylan songs have been sold on vinyl, tape, cd, etc. by him and others in interstate and international commerce, I think the intended meaning of the article is that this may be the first time a Dylan song has been sold solely to be used in an advertisement.

Good thing that there is no confidentiality agreement that prevents discussion of the song's composer in this forum, eh?



From: luke@cs.city.ac.uk (Luke Whitaker)
Subject:The times they are a-changin'
Date: 7 Jan 1994 13:46:49 -0000

 * * *

I saw a pop science program a few years ago about a pop-music database that was aimed at the advertising industry. Basically, if you were advertising toilet rolls, you typed in 'toilet rolls' and it printed a list of golden oldies with relevent sounding lyrics. Anyway, the presenter tried it out,and out popped the title of a Dylan song (don't remember which), and the person showing off the machine said something like "Well, you couldn't use that one because Bob Dylan never allows his songs to be used in adverts". This considerably strengthened my faith in our man. Can it be that he has now sold out ? I hope not.




From: Ed Ricardo (edu@edlis.org)
Subject: Dylan using TV Ad [Was: TV Ad using Dylan]
Date: 11 Jan 1994 11:22:14 -0600

karnett@nyx.cs.du.edu (Kenneth Arnett):
>This morning i'm watching tv, an ad appears- clips of big
>events of the 90's so far, background music is Richie
>Havens singing _The Times They Are A-Changin'_, end of ad:
>We're Coopers & Lybrand! (a brokerage firm? i dunno) What
>gives?????? Who owns _The Times They..._? Bob??????If so,
>Why?????? is it $$$$$$$? arnett

Coopers & Lybrand are Bob's accountants I am told. If you had an accountant's bill as huge as Bob Dylan wouldn't you look for alternative means of payment?

Is it worse than an artist drawing on a napkin or table cloth rather than paying a restaurant bill with cash?



From: yudel@well.sf.ca.us (Larry Yudelson)
Subject: Billboard on Dylan ad
Date: 23 Jan 1994 01:50:10 -0600

Bob Dylan Proves The Times Are Changin' Again
By Eric Boehlert, Billboard 1/22/94

Sink like a stone: For those who missed the 60-second spot during the Orange Bowl on New Year's Day, tune in to CBS following President Clinton's Jan. 25 State of the Union address and see one of the most suprising commercials of this, or any year.

Coopers & Lybrand, the normally low-profile Big Six accounting firm, is in the midst of a $10 million ad blitz, overseen by Boston's Hill Holiday Connors & Cosmopulos advertising firm. As part of the campaign, Hill Holiday has created a handful of conventional spots that run during the Sunday morning political roundtable programs, along with some Wall Street Journal business-to-business spreads.

But one part of the campaign, the Organge Bowl/State of the Union commerical, is a gorgeous image spot with no words, just inspiring pictures and music. That music consists of Richie Havens singing the opening verse of Bob Dylan's ``The Times They Are A-Changin'.''

The fact that Dylan, who has long opposed such commercialization, would sell one of his songs for commerical purposes is historic. That he would sell his cornerstone protest anthem to an accounting firm is amazing.

``I'm shocked,'' says Bob Spitz, author of ``Dylan: A Biography.'' ``It's not like he needs the money... I'm stunned.'' Spitz points out that Dylan is so sensitive about his music being used for commerical purposes that he has a clause in his contract that gives him final say over any requests.

How did Hill Holiday get permission for the song? Well, it asked. Agency president Fred Bertino reports that while researching what Coopers & Lybrand meant in the business community, the word ``change'' kept coming up. ``The Times They Are A-Changin' '' quickly topped the agency's wish list of possible songs, ahead of Paul Siomon's ``Boy in the Buble'' and David Bowie's ``Changes.''

Bertino admits that he never thought he'd get the Dylan song. ``We got lucky. '' After negotiating for two months, the agency and Dylan's management hammered out an agreement.

Part of that plan, besides a hefty undisclosed sum, blocks Hill Holiday from using Dylan's name, even when discussing the commercial. (Around the Boston ad firm, Dylan is known as ``the composer,'' as in, ``the composer of the song is sort of sensitive,'' as one exec put it.) ``We bought the rights to the song, not the rights to talk about him,'' Bertino explains.

Why did Dylan do it? Well that, like much that surrounds the enigmatic figure, remains a mystery. The artist's publisher and publicist were unavailable to discuss the subject.

This is the first time Dylan has ever allowed his words and music to be used for a commercial, according to Spitz. With the move, Dylan becomes the final figure of '60s rock superstardom to sell a song to advertisers, following the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, the Who, and the Beach Boys.

It should be noted that Hill Holiday did a beautiful job incorporating the song into its pitch that business must change in order to thrive. (the ad consists of slow-motion, feel-good images of laboratory break-throughs, children's faces, and a bustling trading floor.)

Nevertheless, ``The Times They Ara3e A-Changin' '' is perhaps the most important pop song of the protest era, even more so than the Beatles' ``Revolution,' which followed Dylan's call to arms by four years, and the use of which in a Nike ocmmerical years back created such an uproar. (Unlike Coopers & Lybrand, Nike welcomed the controversy surrounding ``Revolution'' and shrewedly used it to make its sneaker spot into a news event covered by all the networks.

As for fellow protest figure Richie Havens, who has made a career lately of recording commericals, his manager says Havens had no qualms about singing the song for an accounting firm.



From: randy johnson (RANDYJOHNSON@delphi.com)
Subject: TV Ad using Dylan
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 94 12:12:15 EST

Kenneth Arnett writes:
>This morning i'm watching tv, an ad appears- clips of big events of 
>the 90's so far, background music is Richie Havens singing
>_The Times They Are A-Changin'_, end of ad: We're Coopers & Lybrand!
>(a brokerage firm? i dunno)
>What gives??????

I saw the same ad during the FSU vs Nebraska game New Years Eve. It looked like some coporate comglomerate, I also couldn't tell what they were trying to sell. But like a lot of people, I was really saddened to see this particular piece of music turned into an ad jingle. Is it possible the copyright has run out and Bob has no control over these things, or is that just wishful thinking on my part?

Randy Johnson



From: danlevy@panix.com (Dan Levy)
Subject: TV Ad using Dylan
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 13:16:07 -0500

Something's been lost in all of the discussion of the Coopers & Lybrand commercial using "The Times They Are A'Changin." It's a worthy debate -- whether Dylan should let his songs be used commercially. But has anybody listened to the performance? It's wonderful. Richie Havens has always been a masterful interpreter of Dylan's songs, and this performance is gentle and beautiful. I don't know if it's the case, but I imagine Dylan insisted not only on anonymity, but also on approval of the actual performance. And he has always been a Havens fan. This may have been a good deed on Dylan's part: giving a lucrative gig to a less-well-off colleague from the old days.



From: jerry@hnrc.tufts.edu (Jerry Dallal)
Date: 25 Jan 94 09:01:07 -0500

In article <1994Jan21.172929.5316@ED.RAY.COM>, rango@NMC.ED.RAY.COM 
(Rango Keshavan) writes:
> Hey!!! I heard on WBCN (Boston) this AM that Dylan had sold the rights
> of Times they are a Changin' to an insurance agency so that they could 
> use it in advertisements! Is this true? The DJ also went on to say
> what other Dylan songs coorporations could buy! He seemed pretty
> unnerved by it all. Times was an important song for freedom, and to be
> owned by an insurance company just doesn't seem right!

If only it was an insurance company. Today's Boston Globe reports it was Coopers and Lybrand, accountants to super-star companies. Thus, people who are incensed about the use of the song aren't likely to have business to take away in protest. One can argue that it's Dylan's song, he's waffled about it's real meaning, etc., but nonetheless society has its own pigeon hole for that song--it's special to many people in ways many others can't even imagine--and the sale of the rights cannot be discussed outdside that context.

I'm bitterly disappointed that this aspect of the song wasn't considered. Why do I make such a claim? Because if Dylan had said, "Hey, I need some cash. Tell you what, you want to buy the rights to TTAAC so that they don't get sold for commercial purposes?", then just as there are land conservation commissions that buy land to safeguard it against commercial development, there would have been a group to buy the rights to the song. And why not? Get the rights to a few more such classics, put out an album, and the royalties could fund a lot of worthy causes.



From: dr j lattanzio (johnl@thala.maths.monash.edu.au)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 00:14:51 GMT

 * * *

Oh, lighten up !

It's only a SONG for chrissakes ! ANd Bob owns it..he can do what he wants with it. Be grateful that you have heard it...be grateful that it has touched you...be grateful that he is around to WRITE these things and record them.....and still do 100 shows a year....

Just get off his back !

Hmmm. Sounds like I should lighten up a bit too ! :-)

As he said in an interview once:

People come up to me like I'm some long lost brother or something, just because I wrote a song which happens to bother them in some particular way. Well, I got nothing to do with these people, and they got nothing to do with me.

Seems fair to me. He has nothing more to live up to....

Not sure I've expressed myself tproperly here, but hope you get the feel for what I mean...




From: Ed Ricardo (edu@edlis.org)
Date: 31 Jan 1994 09:56:40 -0600

Chris J. Ullsperger (ullsperg@mendel.berkeley.edu) wrote: 
>Isn't this what happened with Woody's Columbia River songs?
>Certainly it is no longer the liberal point of view that
>the bigger the dam the better, but Woody sure took his
>commission and went to work with gusto...at least that's my
>understanding (great songs, too). Was Woody's "sell-out" in
>the back of Bob's mind when he made his switch away from
>"protest songs" and distanced himself from "movements"?
>Maybe he feels that this is one good way to put the final
>nail in the coffin of Bob Dylan, leftist social critic.
Precisely! Just as Woody Guthrie had mouths to feed and felt
that large projects giving numbers of skilled and unskilled
unemployed people work, then seen as for the public good,
were worthy of his support, Bob Dylan has mouths to feed at
his accountants' office and may feel very bad about the
number of unemployed accountants who might be helped by
television advertising if it sparks people like you to take
on an accountant where before you might have just turned the
other cheek and let one starve! Forget Medgar Evers or
Hattie Carroll, Bob knows where it's at, now, in 1994...
And as Woody Guthrie supported Roosevelt so others might
feel they must support Clinton & Lybrand, or whatever the
firm Mr Dylan now works for is called...
Was it Donovan who said:
While money doesn't talk, it swears
 Obscenity, who really cares
 Propaganda, all is phony.
Never could tell the two of them apart in the 1960s,
 it's getting easier now, though... :-)
Anyway, EDLIS as always is wholly supportive of Mr Dylan and
each career move he makes. We have filed away the reference
to the commercial and once we have enough Dylan songs in
commercials to do a tape tree we hope to get it out to you!
The tape is entitled: "And don't criticize what you can't
understand..." Let us know if you do NOT want to receive the
publicity pack from each of the companies advertised, or if
you do NOT want your home address sold when EDLIS offers its
Dylan fan address book to the highest bidder among the
mailshot advertisers...
He could've sold insurance, owned a restaurant or bar
Could've been an accountant or a tennis star


From: edtped@eua.ericsson.se (Peter Dickson)
Subject: Another sell out for $$
Date: 10 Mar 1994 11:41:45 GMT

In article 080394150809@oopte.fiu.edu, ellenber@servax.fiu.edu (Todd 
Ellenberg) writes:
'Hey now,
'Boy, it was oh soooo sad to see. On the heels of other rock and roll
'classics being used on tv commercials, Dylan has now joined the sell-out
'pack. And it couldn't be any more mainstream establishment.
'I saw a commercial for the Big 8 accounting firm of Coopers & Lybrand
'last weekend which had "The Times They Are a Changing" as the soundtrack.
'Oh man...is nothing sacred?
My theory is as follows:
 1) Dylan thinks his songs are his.
 2) He knows that other people think they somehow belong to them.
 3) This pisses him off.
 4) He knows that some people idolize him and his songs to the point
 that they are unable to see them for what they really are: songs
 written by a human being - Dylan.
 5) This, too, pisses him off. 
 6) So, in an educational effort to help people get their proportions
 right he has sold one of his songs for an ad.
 7) The song choosen was The Times they are a-changing, which 
illustrates the point further.
 8) Crying about this makes about as much sense as booing did when Dylan
 choose to go electric. 
 9) As long as Dylan does not compromise with his art, all talk of 
"selling out" makes absolutely no sense at all. 
He has done this kind of de-idolizing efforts countless times before.
The whole string of albums from Basement Tapes to New Morning illustrates
that - and the fact that he didn't even bother to release Basement Tapes
at first makes the point even clearer.
No IMHO's whatsoever!
Peter Dickson



From: Ed Ricardo (edu@edlis.org)
Subject: Another sell out for $$
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 1994 10:52:33 GMT

Just repeating old, old news, but rather than Peter Dickson's complex but plausible theory, my understanding was that when he saw Coopers & Lybrands' accountancy bill for the last financial year he was shocked and awestruck, and suggested they come to some other arrangement rather than straight cash.

Remember we had a long thread on this, comparing his actions with artists who draw on the tablecloth rather than pay cash for a meal and drink, and how the restauranteur may well be much better off in cash terms in the end...

'Course Mr Dylan could pay for his meals by writing a lyric on a table napkin or similar... Or just singing a song... Let's see $35,000 means on average well over $1,000 per song. Bet you can get a decent meal even in the best New York City restaurants for that.

Then there is the drinks bill, how would he settle that??? ;-)




From: ramer@ssc.wisc.edu
Subject: Coopers and Lybrand strikes again
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 1994 01:13:06 GMT

The evening news tonight (NBC, I think) ended with one of those video retrospectives of the year. The GOP takeover of Congress was the final bit.

And there was Newt Gingrich smiling and waving, while in the background Bob Dylan could be heard singing "The Times They Are A Changin'."


Sandy Ramer



From: Ed Ricardo (edu@edlis.org)
Subject: Greek beer drinkers?
Date: 7 Jun 1994 12:22:55 -0500

I know it is old hat that the Coopers & Lybrand
advertisement was not the first time Mr Dylan sold the
rights to a song for use in a commercial, but it seems not
to have been mentioned on rec.music.dylan?
The song in question is Turkey Chase which was used in a
televison advertising campaign for beer in Greece in 1979.
Does anyone recall the brand of beer?
Why do people think it is worse to advertise accountants
rather than a dangerous drug like alcohol? Which do you
think has done Mr Dylan more harm, which more good? Which
has given you more fun: beer or accountancy?
 [Oh, Ben, could you or Nate post the lyrics to Turkey Chase
 on rec.music.dylan? In English and Greek? Thanks. (Always
 fun to assign the tough ones!) ;-)]



From: thompson@asimov.oit.umass.edu (Her Traciness)
Subject: 'The Times They Are A-Changin' Bank Of Montreal ad
Date: 13 Oct 96 11:54:19 GMT

 * * *

Some financial company in Spain (never understood exactly who they were) had the first 4 lines of "God on our Side".

I kid you not.

Tracy Thompson (tthompson@spanport.umass.edu)
Dept. of Spanish and Portuguese
University of Massachusetts, Amherst 01003  dull backup .sig



Subject: Selling Out
From: Ed Ricardo (edu@edlis.org)
Date: 1995/10/11

Ronnie Schreiber (RSchreiber@megaweb.com) wrote:
: How many of this newsgroup's participants would turn down the 
: kind of money that CBS or Coopers/Lybrand can offer? Any way 
: you look at it, it's big money and Dylan *is* in the business 
: of selling his music. What ethical difference is there between 
: selling songs to people buying records, tapes and cd's and 
: selling songs to tv producers and stockbrokers?

I agree with Ronnie. Until Dylan's Coopers period I had rarely considered accountancy, its fascination, its importance in so many ways. Now I have good friends who are accountants. And I tell people who miss the accountancy themes in Mr Dylan's work just what they are missing.

And it is important to each and every one of us that Dylan's children will all be multi-millionaires. That is the essence of rock and roll is it not?

Without accountancy we would all be helpless, like a... like a... oh you know what I mean! :-)

: Picasso's children are multimillionaires because of the value 
: of their father's work. Does that diminish *his* art?
: The only artists who haven't 'sold out' are the ones who don't 
: make a living at it. Sure, some are more pristine about who 
: they sell to, but the money you pay for a Dylan CD is no less 
: even though his albums have never sold particularly well, 
: compared to the monster acts.
: Ronnie Schreiber
: ronnies153@aol.com
 | Coopers | When it comes to providing solutions for 
| & Lybrand | your business, we are commited to classic 
| performance 



Subject: Coopers & Lybrand videos
From: Ed Ricardo (edu@edlis.org)
Date: 1995/10/25

Ken Paterson (kenp@INNET.COM) wrote:
: >: this 2 for 1 thing are quickly 'run outta town' as they say. 
: >Many trade Coopers & Lybrand videos. I've seen EDLIS agents
: >get out of private planes and into peasant carts with horses, 
: >exploiting the rural poor in the least developed parts of Europe. 
: >And still not buy a copy of Krogsgaard! And what I could tell you
: >about Biloxi, both on and off stage...
: >Droit de seigneur I believe it is called? :-)
: Well said Craig!
: Can you tell me what Coopers and Lybrand is and where to get tapes?

Wellll, it is just that circle of people who specialise in collecting video of Dylan's work used in commercials. Last time I was in the home of such a collector I must confess I lost interest in the videos after the Coopers & Lybrand advertisement and the Greek beer, so I don't know what followed, I went out to the kitchen to help his pretty young wife "prepare things". :-) I am very liberated about housework and stuff, you see... ;-)

Has anyone asked Coopers & Lybrand for tapes, they would probably happily send 'em as promotional material? I have only seen pirated copies of the ad from home videorecorders capturing live broadcast television.



Subject: Bizzare movie
From: Andrew Muir (ndrew@ZIMMY.DEMON.CO.UK)
Date: 1996/02/05

> Bob Roberts was GREAT and was definitely satrical about Dylan.
> Even if you like someone, you can make fun of them!

I liked the film and thought the satire was clever, sustained and complimentary.

Much better than Dylan's own satire which completely lacks subtlety:

Coopers & Lybrand
Live Aid
West Point
Woodstock II
Private gig for Japanese bankers

Just as well they don't wear fancy jewels & nose rings eh? As they, no doubt, 'decide America's fate from, uh, Amsterdam and Phoenix.'

What a guy.

No deconstruction of myth theories; puhleeeze.

Andrew Muir aka Andy aka Homer aka "Alias anything you please"
MS-Mail: MUIRA@olddipesh.agw.bt.co.uk
Internet: Andrew@zimmy.demon.co.uk



From: Naomi Berlyne (yu148520@yorku.ca)
Bob's BankSubject: The Times They Are A-Changin' Bank Of Montreal ad
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 17:53:18 +0000

M.Cakebread wrote:
> For all you Canadian HWY61'rs the Bank of Montreal is using the song
> 'The Times They Are A-Changin' for their new tv ad. They sure
> are!!! {;^>
> Mike

I saw that ad yesterday for the first time and got the shock of my life!!! It shows a group of children strutting running in a long line with 'the Times They Are A-Changin' being sung in the background. At first I didn't know what all this was about, and then to my horror saw the 'Bank of Montreal' logo flash on the screen. I remember years ago reading an interview of Dylan where he said he would never sell one of his songs for the use in an adverstisement. Does this mean he's finally decided to 'sell out'???!! As a long-time Dylan fan, I'm really shocked and really disappointed in the man. Thats all I can say.




From: Saulo Silva (pires@INTERLIGUE.COM.BR)
Subject: Bank x Dylan
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 14:40:50 -0300

>When I heard that the Bank of Montreal bought the Dylan song I knew that I
>would once again hear the cry, "Dylan sold out." I knew too that I would
 [ .....]
>All of this is to say why I worry about all of this crap that will
>be written about how "Dylan's sold out". Dylan always tried to cut
>through ideology. He always tried to distance himself from easy answers
>and he always distanced himself from the flower generation and "Woodstock
>There is a pool of perspiration on the floor for every dollar
>he made, of that I am sure. And I remind people, Dylan could have retired
>long before now. He has not.
Well said, Murray! I do agree with you!!



From: sscobie1@sol.uvic.ca (Stephen Scobie/Maureen Scobie)
Subject: Dylan 'anthem' = bank jingle
Date: 13 Oct 1996 05:11:15 GMT

I remember all the controversy when Bob sold "Times" to Coopers & Lybrand.

And then he came out in concert and sang it in a way that just blew away all the connotations of commercial "sell-out."

I hope he does it again on the coming tour.

It doesn't matter who he sells it to, or what they do with it, or what purpose it's used for ---

the only person that can change a Dylan song is Dylan.

As long as he still sings it as if he means it, it's still his song.




From: Ben Taylor (bptaylor@laguna.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Dylan 'anthem' = bank jingle
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 01:19:46 +0100

Glenn Bachmann writes:
>-I don't view it as "selling out" - if the guy needs the money ( does he
>really? ), who am I to tell him how he can and can't make money?
I think it's funny that people rationalise the decision to hire out the
song by saying that Dylan is probably hard up and *needs* the money or
that it must be going to charity. Is it so bad that he might be doing it
because he *wants* the money, maybe to buy that solid gold boombox he's
had his eye on for weeks now, or that Harley Davidson that he just can't
do without?
>On the other hand:
>-My enjoyment of the song is now completely ruined, since everytime I
>hear the song I associate it with a commercial. 
Well it's not ruined for me. I never saw the commercial and never will.
Now maybe someone who has no previous knowledge of "The Times They Are
A-Changin'" will later hear Dylan's version and their mind will suddenly
be flooded with warm glowing images of beaming bank tellers handing over
dollar bills to thankful customers.. But, y'know, that sort of thing is
only shortlived. Another thirty years down the line and which will have
survived, the advert or the song? How about even just five years down
the line?
(I was going to say "it's only a song" but that sort of argument tends
not to go down well :-)
>-Though its not selling out in my view, you could think of it as
>choosing the most effortless way for him to make money.
Not effortless. He put the time and energy into creating it thirty years
ago, and into recreating it over and over again ever since. There's no
moral rule that limits the time scale for revenues Dylan can earn from a
single creation. (Copyright law may have some say in this though?)
Okay, analogies are boring but bear with me. Consider the software
programmer who spends 18 months on his masterpiece, prepared with
Company X in mind. Finally it's finished and for a huge amount of money
he sells one copy to this company for their own use. Later he finds
another company who would appreciate it too and so he sells a copy to
them. All he does for the latter is spend 10 minutes copying from floppy
to floppy. Does that mean the second sale was effortless?
>As opposed to creating and releasing new material, or touring, for 
>example. I suppose this aspect of it causes me to lose some respect for 
The days of two or more albums a year are over. That was then and this,
for better or worse, is now. Of course you could take a look and see
that he is still touring and with stunning frequency. (For this alone
Dylan has my admiration). Creating and releasing new material? You are
not patient enough. There is enough credible rumour mongering in the
pages of Isis magazine and here on rmd to point towards imminent
projects. I don't agree with those who complain that "Good As I Been To
You" and "World Gone Wrong" are somehow inferior Dylan works because he
didn't compose them. He lives and breathes those songs, they are his as
if he created them himself. And they are far more personal and more
revealing about him than "The Times They Are A-Changin'" ever was.
I think it curious that all of this would cause you to lose respect for
Bob Dylan.
Ben Taylor
Leeds, England



From: aheartfd@mts.net (Alan Heartfield)
Subject: Bank of Montreal Controversy
Date: 15 Oct 1996 01:08:14 GMT

 * * *

The songs ARE important. But, they are only songs. The best of the century, perhaps of our civilization if you like, but still only songs.

My point is among his other skills, Dylan seems able to separate the thought and emotions that went into his songs from day to day 20th century living. If he couldn't - if the songs became sacrosant - then he would probably have long ago ended up like poor Phil Ochs who lost sight of his role as a commentator and when the politics and songs became everything he became nothing.

If 100 years from now "The Times..." is still an important group of words and/or music (and all us RMD's know it will be) then it's use as a Bank ad will not likely even be a footnote. Besides, it is beautifully done, and it is exposing Dylan to a lot of people.

The man can do what the hell he wants, as long as he stays relatively sane and puts out a CD now and again.




Subject: Dylan 'anthem' = bank jingle
From: Ed Ricardo (edu@edlis.org)
Date: 1996/10/15

Glenn Bachmann (GBACHMAN@planet.net) wrote:
: >>Is it so bad that he might be doing it because he *wants* the money, 
: >>maybe to buy that solid gold boombox he's had his eye on for weeks 
: >>now, or that Harley Davidson that he just can't do without?
: >>I think it curious that all of this would cause you to lose respect 
: >>for Bob Dylan.
: bother you or others, but it kind of bothers me. I will definitely be
: bummed if I hear of more commericals featuring Dylan songs.
: I still love Bob's work, and always will, but could you ever look at a
: Van Gogh in the same way if it was used in a pizza commercial? Can
: anyone hear "I heard it through the grapevine" and not think of
: California Raisins? And if anyone's seen the recent "cheese whiz"
: commercial featuring (I think) the Temptations or Four Tops singing "Its
: the same old song", you can see how tasteless ( forgive the pun ) this
: kind of thing can get. 

Has Bob bought the rights to Van Gogh? How much is the pizza company paying?

Now some of you are finally seeing how we pre-Columbian Dylan fans feel! This was all so predictable. The rot set in when he signed that 1961 contract, since then its been accountants and bankers, estate agents and politicians. I knew it would all end in tears. I think he actually wrote The Times They Are A-Changin' knowing it would appeal to Bank of Montreal bankers and Coopers & Lybrand accountants. How many of those not offended are accountants themselves? Television jingles. Olatunji indeed!

In fact Bob said a little something about writing jingles for banks when he was playing Montreal's Finjan Club, "Here's a song, this is in sort of a set... a set pattern of songs that say, uh ... that say a little more than "I love you and you love me 'n' let's go over to the banks of Italy." And if we visit the Banc Toscana, Via A. Manzoni 16, La Spezia, who do we find has an account there? ;-)

We watched Bill Cosby plummet from serious comedian of Lord Buckley standing to the depths of television triviality. Bob played the same clubs originally. He fell over a little more slowly.

If you ain't into Malibu music then stay pre-Columbian, you won't regret it, kick your shoes off, do not fear, bring that vinyl over here...

I don't think Bob Dylan is too bothered about Canadian television commercials. Or those who spend time watching such things.

What did the television squawk?
What did the television squawk?
Well it roared and it boomed
And it bounced around the room
And it didn't say nothing at all!



From: John Chancey (jchancey@BRIGHT.NET)
Subject: Bank Commercial
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:16:56 -0400

Folks, folks, get a grip! I've been reading the postings about the Bank of Montreal's commercial, and an (AP) article appeared in todays Columbus (Ohio) Dispatch quoting an Ontatio reader who wrote "The real villian is Bob Dylan, who traded in a generation's memories when he allowed the song to be used as an advertising jingle, probably for a tidy profit." The article also quotes Dylan's publicist, Elliot Mintz, as saying Dylan himself never referred to The Times They Are A-Changin' as a great protest anthem. "For Bob, it was just a song he wrote."

I was there in the 60's and have great memories of those times, and these memories can't be changed, taken away, or traded off. Sure, The Times They.... had very much relevance to that era, but I haven't seen the times stop a-changin' yet.

I've always been very "idealistic" and have been dissappointed (by people) many times as a result of it. As far as Dylan selling a song - I think that's what songwriters do.

Who was it that said " If you want someone you can trust - trust yourself."?

John Chancey



From: Jim Kitzmiller (mybkpgs@MAIL.RKD.SNDS.COM)
Subject: Dylan 'anthem' = bank jingle
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:27:01 -0500

Where Your Money is Still Green
Money from adoring fans who appreciate your craft--Good money
Money from Japanese businessmen who could not know your worth--Bad money
Money from publishers who print your work for sale--Good money 
Money from banks to use your work in a commercial--Bad money
Money from performers who cover your work in person and on 
 recordings--Good money
Money from promoters who profit from your appearances--Bad money
Money from concert goers who tape the show--Good money
Money from record companies who profit from your CDs--Bad money
Money from businesses who *donate* to public TV to air your 
 shows--Good money
Money from businesses who make commercials to sponsor network 
 programs--Bad money
Money from fans who buy tickets for your show--Good money
Money from Ticketmaster who sell tickets at a profit--Bad money



From: jweikart@mail.utexas.edu (John R. Weikart)
Subject: 'The Times They Are A-Changin' Bank Of Montreal ad
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 01:24:05 -0500

Ya wanna talk about selling out?

You might find this shocking, but I heard a Dylan song on a commercial radio station one day. I kid you not.

I hear he even let Sony put his music out on CDs and that you can buy them at Wal-Mart.

Did you know he let Peter Paul and Mary sing his songs?

I decided to go to the upcoming shows in Austin. Guess what? They made me get tickets--and I had to pay MONEY to get them!

What's next? I suppose next he'll do the soundtrack for a Hollywood western or play for Japanese businessmen.

Doing stuff for money--sickening! It's nice to see a newsgroup with so many people dedicated to the volunteer spirit!




From: John Howells (howells@sgi.com)
Subject: Sometimes, Lyrics Are Just Lyrics
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 07:16:33 -0800

Here's a column concerning Dylan's selling of "Times" to the Canadian bank.

By the way, where did we get this idea that banks are inherently evil? Just asking...

 John Howells

Sunday, November 10, 1996 Page 1/Z1
1996 San Francisco Chronicle
SCOTT OSTLER -- Sometimes, Lyrics Are Just Lyrics

Bob Dylan, you OK, man?

I just read that you sold ``The Times They Are A-Changin'''to a Canadian bank to use in their TV commercials.

Mondo bummer.

Are those bank people holding you hostage, Bob? Should I send lawyers, guns and money?

The words of your song now come flooding back to me, which is weird, since I never knew 'em in the first place.

With your songs, Bobby, it wasn't always the words, at least not literally. It was the feeling, the spirit.

It used to be singers would sing "Baby, I love you, let me hold you," and I would know pretty much what they meant.

Then you came with "The pump don't work cause the vandals stole the handle," and frankly I was at a loss to relate that to my life, since my family had indoor plumbing.

But even for this hormone-addled teen of the 'burbs, whose deepest reading was MAD magazine, it became clear that not only were you announcing that the times were a-changin', you were a-changin' 'em.

Music has power (no extra charge for that pearl o' wisdom, Bob), and your music helped power change in everything from civil rights to basic ways of thinking.

So you're the last person I figured to sell his musical soul, but your publicist (Elliot Mintz) recently told a reporter, "For Bob, it was just a song he wrote."

As if the song in question was "Eensie Weensie Teenie Weenie Yellow Polka-Dot Bikini."

I bet Francis Scott Key's publicist would never say, "For Fran, it was just a song he wrote."

If your flack was right, a lot of us would appreciate you issuing a list of your songs, indicating which ones were just songs you wrote and which were songs you, like, meant.

Great old songs by the truckload are being dumped into the TV- commercial soul-shredding machine. Just this week I heard the Kinks' "So Tired" selling Alka-Seltzer, Roy Orbison's "Sweet Dreams" selling Doubletree Hotels, and Ben E. King's "Stand By Me" selling Buicks.

I used to hear "Stand By Me" and picture a man in time of great despair and need, his soul crying out for his girl, who was probably away at cheerleader camp.

Now that song makes me think of how, when the night is dark and the land is cold, I won't be afraid, just as long as I'm driving a Buick LeSabre.

A song that once triggered memories of a special person or moment now triggers the taste of a special ketchup.

Matthew Barrett, president of the bank that bought your song, said, "Great art is timeless. The notion that it can't be used in a different context is infantile." I see his point. Therefore, the notion that Barrett's office can't be used in a different context, such as a storehouse for six tons of wet elephant dung, is infantile.

Show you how far off I was, Bob: It's guys like Barrett I thought you were trying to warn us against.

I just dug out my old copy of "Bringing It All Back Home," 1965, and on the back of the album cover you wrote, "a song is anything that can walk by itself/i am called a songwriter. a poem is a naked person . . . some people say that i am a poet." I'm sure there's an explanation for the bank thing. Please send word, via metaphoric/mystical verse if necessary to fool your captors.

I'll keep a butterfly net handy, in case the answer is blowin' in the wind.



From: florida.oranges@edlis.org (-fo)
Subject: Dylan did not sell "The Times"--M. Witmark & Sons did
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 07:07:21

rblack@wordsandmusic.com (Roedy Black) writes:
>For what it's worth, according to an investigative report on a CBC 
>news radio program (CBC radio has been covering this story quite 
>extensively because of the Canadian angle), Dylan did not sell "The 
>Times They Are A-changin' to the Bank of Montreal. The publishing 
>rights to this song, and all other Dylan songs written up to 1965, are 
>owned by M. Witmark & Sons Ltd. Whoever administers the publishing 
>for this company sold the right to use Dylan's song in the bank 
>commercial. However, according to the report, Dylan does have 
>administrative control over his later songs, associated with music 
>publishing companies such as Dwarf, Big Sky, and Ram's Horn.

ok -does this settle the issue for all the bruised progressive sensibilities that went directly into kneejerk 'judas' mode over this event? probably not. next we will hear dylan should have chained himself to the doors of the montreal bank in protest of the jingle action. or bought matching radio airtime himself to denounce bloody commercialism in english speaking markets worldwide. or speedily run into the studio & written a new 'anthem' on the spot, to vent the righteous indignation of a violated generation & hired townsend & the who as backup with instructions to play fucking loud. or maybe at least put 'times they are a'changin' into the third setlist slot.
or do something anyway... nevermind we may have witnessed a singular & noteworthy event, possibly the only way anyone anywhere can get money out of a bank without committing a felony or running a third world country...
without even trying... -fo



From: "W.H. Horton, Jr." (whorton@worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Dylan did not sell "The Times"--M. Witmark & Sons did
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 14:13:24 -0400

Roedy Black (rblack@wordsandmusic.com) wrote:
: For what it's worth, according to an investigative report on a CBC 
: news radio program (CBC radio has been covering this story quite 
: extensively because of the Canadian angle), Dylan did not sell "The 
: Times They Are A-changin' to the Bank of Montreal. The publishing 
: rights to this song, and all other Dylan songs written up to 1965, are 
: owned by M. Witmark & Sons Ltd. Whoever administers the publishing 
: for this company sold the right to use Dylan's song in the bank 
: commercial. However, according to the report, Dylan does have 
: administrative control over his later songs, associated with music 
: publishing companies such as Dwarf, Big Sky, and Ram's Horn.

I don't think the "selling out" question can be resolved on the technicality that Dylan lacked control.

The current copyright owner of The Times They Are A Changin is Special Rider Music, which is thought to be one of Dylan's own publishing companies (along with Dwarf Music, Big Sky Music and Ram's Horn Music). (Does any reader know the structure of these companies?)

When The Times was originally copyrighted in 1963, the U.S. copyright statute provided for a 28-year original term and a 28-year renewal period. The standard Songwriters Guild of America contract in the '60s limited the grant of rights to the publisher to 28 years (same as the original U.S. copyright term), after which the worldwide rights would revert to the songwriter. It appears that Dylan's contract with Witmark had this provision, since when the copyright to The Times was renewed in 1991, it was renewed in the name of Special Rider Music, rather than Warner Bros. Inc. (Witmark's successor).

In addition, even prior to the copyright renewals of his early songs, Dylan appears to have had control over the use of his songs as jingles. From Krasilovsky and Shemel, "This Business Of Music" (7th Edition 1995), p. 335:

Some composers will object to any jingle use of their song as an affront to artistic integrity and reputation or as detracting from normal use of the song. An example was the long-established refusal of composer Bob Dylan to allow jingle uses of his songs until he finally relented for one exception. He allowed the international accounting firm of Coopers & Lybrand to use "The Times They Are A Changin" provided that they not identify it further by direct or indirect use of his name or likeness. Less demanding was Graham Nash of Crosby, Stills and Nash, who not only allowed his song "Teach Your Children" to be used for Fruit of the Loom underwear ads but his voice as well. He said modestly, "We're not talking Mozart, here."

Although a songwriter grants exclusive worldwide rights to the song publisher, usually certain rights are contractually reserved to the songwriter. Commonly the use of a song for advertising purposes (such as jingles) by the publisher requires the consent of the songwriter. Dylan certainly seems to have retained this right.



Its funny that somebody as fiercely independent as Dylan periodically gets accused of "selling out"....



From: florida.oranges@edlis.org (-fo)
Subject: jinglejangletangle
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 21:42:32

anyone keeping score on the new trial of the century? so far, it looks like dylan might own rights to "times they are a'changin" & might not, though most agree dylan wrote the song way back in the foggy ruins. some say dylan sold the song & some say dylan was nowhere near the place when the ink hit the parchment. still some others say the song belongs to a generation, yea, even represents some generation in some mystical mystique way, & must not be brokered, nor broken from the pristine origins of an ever ascending arc of future triumph. like a flaming arrow the song shoots over skies of memory, launches a thousand ships. keeps on soaring like a ringer looking for the bell.
o time where is thy victory? o change where is thy sting? & the generation of the timeless a'changin' hour don't get too real upset no more nowadays... no, the generation of the times never changes, but them times just keep on keepin' on, & the only thing that really sends them loopin' the rope now is when someone lays the finger on one of them sacred tunes. yeah, they can do as they please, but don't touch them tunes. anything but them tunes... -fo



From: edu@edlis.org (Ed Ricardo)
Subject: Dylan 'anthem' = bank jingle
Date: 21 Oct 1996 13:26:23 GMT

Zoner13 (zoner13@aol.com) wrote:
: movies are quite bad, yet have great songs, (including Dylan's over the
: years) and the songs are still intact. No one complains when Dylan allows
: his songs to be used in movies time and time again. Why complain now? 
Oh I have heard many complaints on just that... 
: Besides, it's not like he gave out Visions of Johanna or Idiot Wind or
: She's Your Lover Now or something like that. Times is one of the most

I too think in the next century Bob Dylan will be remembered primarily as a jingle writer. Especially in Canada. A Nobel winning jingle writer.

I am all for it. Once again Canada is just a step ahead. A tastefully done advert for a divorce lawyer's practice would go wonderfully with She's Your Lover Now! I can see the ashtray clearly, as the close up leaves the final frame of an ashtray filling the screen. I'll bet if it was done really well many more would buy a divorce who may never have even thought of it before...

Visions of Johanna would have to be an art gallery. Perhaps the ROM, they chase money rather than art now, all the wonderful Inuit art got dumped in a cellar there to make way for some corporate sponsor I recall? Do they have any Van Gogh?

And Idiot Wind? What product... Hmmmm.... A heart transplant surgeon, not his main advert but one for lung transplant thrown in at little extra cost. "It's a wonder that you still know how to breathe." Fade to surgeon on his horse ranch, home in on fine English leather saddle, blood dripping.

Art, medicine, music, accountancy, banking, law, all are in the market place. Lambs. Why not take pride in the money you make? I recall our hero in the daze when he did longgggggg song intros, telling us, "Don't matter how much money you got, there is only two kinds of people: There's saved people and there's lost people. Now remember that I told you that. You may never see me again. I may never be through here again. You may not see me. Sometime down the line, you'll remember you heard it here -- that Jesus is Lord. And every race shall bow to him!!"

Banks are about saving too. 
You know the wicked have sold their souls for gold
And everybody knows their wealth is in the sky
And the very, very, very sad part about it all
There ain't nothing that nobody gonna survive! 



Subject: February 3, 1996 - Las Vegas, Nevada - Set List
From: billp61@earth.execpc.com (Bill Pagel)
Bob's Brokerage FirmDate: 1996/02/05

February 3, 1996 Las Vegas, Nevada
Dylan performed at the Biltmore Hotel for approximately 250
people The show was a corporate sponsored event and 
was not open to the general public. His band was with him.
Set List:
1. Jokerman
2. Just Like A Woman
3. All Along The Watchtower
4. Just Like Tom Thumb's Blues
5. Mr. Tambourine Man (acoustic)
6. Don't Think Twice, It's All Right (acoustic)
7. Like A Rolling Stone
8. Maggie's Farm
9. Alabama Getaway
Bill Pagel



Subject: Private Phoenix show '96
From: billp61@earth.execpc.com (Bill Pagel)
Date: 1996/02/08

Here is some more information on the Feb. 2nd Phoenix show at the Biltmore Hotel.

The private show was held in the Pavilion, a 15,000 square-foot multi-use facility which was set up as a nightclub for this event. Crosby Stills and Nash were also on the same bill for the Friday night show. Rod Steward performed for the same group on Saturday night, however, this event took place at the Fleischer Museum in Scottsdale, Arizona. The show was sponsored by Nomura Securities International, Inc., a subsidiary of Nomura Securitiies Co., Ltd. Nomura Securities Co., Ltd. is the largest brokerage house in Japan with sales of 6.6 billion dollars in 1994. Nomura is a leading underwriter of bonds, but the firm's main business is its Japanese stock brokerage. Interestingly enough, Nomura helped to underwrite a US issue of Sony stock in 1961.

Bill Pagel



Subject: Arizona Show
From: elcabong@panix.com (Geoffrey Meyer)
Date: 1996/02/25

douglasfc@aol.com (DouglasfC) writes:
>Just looking through the February 26 Barron's and noticed a full page ad
>(p. 53) recognizing the Nomura Real Estate Finance Showcase. Thanked were
>many Financial Companies, Crosby, Stills & Nash, Rod Stewart, Governor
>Pete Wilson and "the greatest musical poet of our time". What, his name
>it means nothing?

It's possible Bob's people inserted a clause in the contract for this event prohibiting the bank from associating themselves publicly with "Dylan" because of it. They may have been legally bound *not* to mention his name.


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